Here's some evidence for the side arguing that Jewish ethnocentrism is not significant.
I took the Jewish sample that was asked the question about the importance of one's ethnicity, and split it into two equal groups. The first group is people ages 18 to 54; the age range for the second is 55 and older. The mean "my ethnicity is not important" score for the younger group is 2.17 (n = 24); for the older group it's 1.83 (n = 24). That's three-tenths of a standard deviation drop in ethnocentrism among the younger group. The sample is small unfortunately, but combined with the high rates of intermarriage mentioned in the comments of the last post, ethnocentrism might be on the decline.
One other thing: even if Jewish American ethnocentrism were approaching Italian American levels among young people, Italians don't seem hypocritical to me. To put it mildly, they're not known for their crusading anti-racism.
UPDATE: Now that I think about it, the greater ethnocentrism among older Jews (that reaches levels similar to Mex-ams) might be explained as an age effect rather than a generational difference. People seem to discover their roots as they age.
Are gun owners mentally ill?
Some anti-gun people think owning a gun is a sign of some kind of mental abnormality. According to General Social Survey data, gun owners ...
"To put is mildly, they're not known for their crusading anti-racism."
ReplyDeleteAnyway, if your charge of hypocrisy is based on what Jews are "known for," then again my challenge:
Please produce the names of 3 prominent Jews who are hypocrites as I asked a couple threads ago.
P.S. I was playing with the GSS web site. It seems that among ethnic Greeks, some 81% feel that their ethnicity is "very important" or "important" to them. The figure is 75% of Jews.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, only 8.8% of Greeks support a law against inter-racial marriage. The figure is 9.4% for Jews.
So it seems the Greeks are much bigger hypocrites than the Jews.
It's time for Greek hypocrisy to end, doncha think?
P.P.S. It seems the Puerto Ricans are even more hypocritical than the Greeks.
Israeli Group Waging Actual War on Christmas
ReplyDeletesabril: Since you raised the issue of Greek ethnocentrism (just like the movie raised the issue of Jewish ethnocentrism), if ethnocentrism is inappropriate in America, Greek Americans should be criticized for keeping their churches Greek. Parts or perhaps all of their divine liturgy services are in Greek, most churches have Greek festivals, and non-Greek parishioners feel a little like outsiders. This is a Christian church in America that claims to be universalistic. You're door is not open to everyone as long as the institution is designed for one ethnic group.
ReplyDeleteInductivist, I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not talking about ethnocentrism per se. The questin on the table is whether Jews are (generally speaking) hypocritical as you have charged.
ReplyDeleteActually, the real question is whether Jews are especially hypocritical since all groups contain hypocrites.
My personal sense is that for the most part, the Jews who are anti-tribalists are also that way when it comes to their own people.
However, I am happy to consider whatever evidence you wish to offer. So far you have offered essentially nothing except your own prejudices.
This is a Christian church in America that claims to be universalistic. You're door is not open to everyone as long as the institution is designed for one ethnic group.
ReplyDeleteJews allow converts from any ethnic group or racial group. African Jews were allowed into Israel because they proved to the satisfaction of religious authorities
There are few conversions to Judaism because it is a more cumbersome process than converting to Christianity, but the lack of converts to Judaism is not due to ethnic hostility.
The questin on the table is whether Jews are (generally speaking) hypocritical as you have charged.
Both are valid questions because the anti-Jewish contingent seems to have little data to back up their accusations about Jewish ethnocentrism.
I'm still waiting for proof from psychological data that Jews are unusually ethnocentric compared to whites.
Where is the peer reviewed evidence from psychological research? Did anyone bother to check for actual evdence before leveling the accustation that Jews are hyperethnocentric?
"Kevin MacDonald says Jews are ethnocentric even though he himself rarely refers to any actual psychological data and relies mostly on historical anecdotes therefore we should just take his psychological theories at face value" is not proof Jews are ethnocentric, as much as that may surprise some people.
Here's a test. Go to Match.com in Jersey or NYC. Isolate your search to religion = Jewish.
ReplyDeleteRead their profiles. A HUGE majority or not practicing their religion yet in their "What I'm looking for in my mate" criteria you will see Jewish as a requirement.
I love Jews, but they do seem a bit ethnocentric, even the ones who complain about racism and ethnocentrism.
You have to remember, though, that Jews are at the top of ALL intellectual movements -- left or right -- so you have to take the bad with the good. But don't forget the good, Ron.
Meant to say, "A HUGE majority are (not or)not..."
ReplyDeleteRead their profiles. A HUGE majority or not practicing their religion yet in their "What I'm looking for in my mate" criteria you will see Jewish as a requirement.
ReplyDelete97% of white Americans are married to white Americans while Jews outmarry at a rate of 50%.
I love Jews, but they do seem a bit ethnocentric, even the ones who complain about racism and ethnocentrism.
I asked for "peer reviewed psychological data" instead of anecdotes about how "Jews SEEM ethnocentric". Your impressions are not data.
Who cares whether the Jews are hypocrites or not? If someone (of whatever ethnicity) favors bad policies, is it any better if they aren't hypocrites? Is Noam Chomsky somehow less harmful or better than Abe Foxman because he favors policies that would result in the destruction of his own people?
ReplyDelete"Both are valid questions because the anti-Jewish contingent seems to have little data to back up their accusations about Jewish ethnocentrism."
ReplyDeleteI agree, but at the same time I am willing to accept that there may be some truth to the claim that Jews are more ethnocentric -- how else could a group survive for so long as a minority?
That said, the nature of the Jewish population in America is changing rapidly and has been for some time now. Some Jews are quite ethnocentric while others are quite assimilationist. My general sense is that the liberal anti-tribalist types tend to come from the latter category, while the ethnocentric Jews tend to be much more conservative politically.
JMHO
"Now that I think about it, the greater ethnocentrism among older Jews (that reaches levels similar to Mex-ams) might be explained as an age effect rather than a generational difference. People seem to discover their roots as they age."
ReplyDeleteIs there anyway to look at cohorts over time to see if ethnocentrism increases with age? I suspect ethnocentrism sets in more when you start thinking about grandchildren, but that's just a guess.
If Jews were more ethnocentric than non-Jewish whites we should be less trusting of others:
ReplyDeleteVariable TRUST : CAN PEOPLE BE TRUSTED - 163a. Generally speaking, would you say that most people can be trusted or that you can't be too careful in life?
RACE
1
WHITE
1: CAN TRUST 42.7
2: CANNOT TRUST 52.9
3: DEPENDS 4.4
RELIG
3
JEWISH
1: CAN TRUST 45.5
2: CANNOT TRUST 46.5
3: DEPENDS 8.0
FEELWHTS : HOW R FEEL TOWARDS CAUCASIANS - 849d. In general, how warm or cool do you feel towards white or Caucasian Americans? 0 IAP 1 Very Warm 9 Very Cool
ReplyDeleteRACE
1
WHITE
1: Very Warm 34.8
2 19.3
3 13.7
4 8.3
5 19.6
JEW
1: Very Warm 50.7
2: 8.7
3: 21.7
4: 8.7
5: 7.2
GIVCHRTY : R HAS GIVEN MONEY TO A CHARITY - 927. During the past 12 months, how often have you done each of the following things: f. Given money to a charity
ReplyDeleteRACE
1
WHITE
1: More than once a week: 2.9
2: Once a week: 9.0
3: Once a month: 20.5
4: At least 2 or 3 times in the past year: 35.3
5: Once in the past year: 13.4
6: Not at all in the past year: 18.8
RELIG
3
JEWISH
1: More than once a week: 0
2: Once a week 11.7
3: Once a month 36.3
4: At least 2 or 3 times in the past year 28.0
5: Once in the past year 18.9
6: Not at all in the past year 5.1
I'll take David Sloan Wilson over two hysterical sophists any day.
ReplyDeleteI'll take David Sloan Wilson over two hysterical sophists any day.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the psychological data proving Jews are hyperethnocentric. "Kevin MacDonald says Jews are hyperethnocentric" is not proof.
You guys realize Kevin MacDonald has had ten years to point to some peer reviewed evidence and he hasn't coughed it up yet, either because he's too lazy or too stupid to scrounge up the data, right?
If we are hyperethnocentric, then why is the Jewish outmarriage rate 50% and why are we as likely to give to charity as non-Jewish whites?
ReplyDeleteI'm not that familiar with Kevin MacDonald, but Inductivist's tagline is "data not doctrine"
ReplyDeleteSo let's see some cogent data.
"Is there anyway to look at cohorts over time to see if ethnocentrism increases with age? I suspect ethnocentrism sets in more when you start thinking about grandchildren, but that's just a guess."
ReplyDeleteI might have to get creative, but I'll see what I can do.
Italians in the tri-state area are pretty ethnocentric, but outside that region are pretty assimilated. My guess would be that a sample of Italians from Brooklyn/Bronx/Staten Island would be very different from Italian-Americans elsewhere.
ReplyDelete"My guess would be that a sample of Italians from Brooklyn/Bronx/Staten Island would be very different from Italian-Americans elsewhere."
ReplyDeleteI really hope this is true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Shore_%28TV_series%29