Donald Templer and J. Phillippe Rushton have recently published a study of the 50 U.S. states which finds strong correlations among the following varaibles: skin color, IQ, infant mortality, life expectancy, violent crime, HIV/AIDS, and income. This pattern mirrors what Templer has observed internatioanlly. Skin color tends to be more strongly correlated to the list of variables than does income, so the authors conclude that this points to biology rather than economic environment as the more important explanation of the pattern of correlations. They rely on Rushton's life history theory and Lynn's cold climate theory to make sense of why the variables hang together, but whatever the explanation, there seems to be a worldwide pattern of desirable (or undesirable traits) running together, and this is closely associated with skin color.
They review some interesting research by Ducrest et al. (2008) which found that in 20 wild vertebrate species, darker individuals are more aggressive, sexually active, and resistant to stress. They also tend to have a larger body mass and greater energy and physical activity. For example, darker maned male lions are reported to be more aggressive and sexually more active, and darker barn owls show stronger immune response. Darker coloration is associated with enhanced fertility, female sexual receptivity, male sexual motivation and performance, and higher levels of testosterone. Ducrest et al., however, cautioned that these findings might not apply to humans.
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we know the genetic architecture of pigmentation. that is, we know all the genes (~10, usually less than 6 in pairwise between population comparisons). skin color varies via a small number of large effect trait loci. in contrast, I.Q. varies by a huge number of small effect loci. so logically the correlation is obviously just a correlation. to give you an example, SLC45A2 explains 25-40% of the variance between africans and europeans.
ReplyDeletelong story short: it's stupid to keep repeating the correlation between skin color and I.Q. as if it's a novel genetic story. it's not. i hope don't have to keep repeating this for too many years.
I call Lewontin's Fallacy on Razib.
ReplyDeleteOk, I went through the data. I only found 10-16 kids who's parents were born in Africa, depending if I looked at place of birth for mother/father/or both. The mean IQs ranged from 100-105. Interestingly when I did a more inclusive research for Blacks who had mothers and or fathers born abroad, the mean (ranging from 93-96, with n's ranging from 26-62) was significantly different from the native white mean. I guess Black African are smart Blacks.
ReplyDeleteI call Lewontin's Fallacy on Razib.
ReplyDeleteyou're a moron to call lewontin's fallacy on me as if it's awesomely impressive.
Are you saying there could be no pigmentation-personality pleiotropy?
did i say anything about personality in my comment? i specifically talked about the potential pleiotropy between pigmentation and I.Q. i told rushton years ago that we know enough about pigmentation to refute the connection pretty easily, but he doesn't care. so he's either stupid or ignorant. people who continue to push this after i point out the obvious logical problem are either stupid or ignorant.
Razib,
ReplyDelete"did i say anything about personality in my comment?"
No. But that's why I asked. I trust your opinion on these matters.
No. But that's why I asked. I trust your opinion on these matters.
ReplyDeletei'd bet against it at this point. used to think there was a connection. but we know all the pig. genes. that means that we have candidates which should be robustly replicated. they haven't. what i'm saying is that we know with ~100% certainty which genes control pigment variance. 95% of the game is figuring out the loci which control a trait, so if there's a causal relationship it should be relatively easy. just like pigment genetics was easy. it hasn't been. if you positive that trait X is strongly correlated with pigmentation due to pleiotropy than the elucidation of the genetic architecture of the trait should b easy. if it isn't, then that implies that there isn't any real causal connection.
I call Lewontin's Fallacy on Razib.
ReplyDeleteGood call. And Razib's poor retort is even less impressive.
Good call. And Razib's poor retort is even less impressive.
ReplyDeletehey retard, my blog is on the first page of google's search for "lewontin's fallacy."
hey retard, my blog is on the first page of google's search for "lewontin's fallacy."
ReplyDeleteIt's too bad that this fact didn't help you to really understand all of its implications. Pathetic.
i specifically talked about the potential pleiotropy between pigmentation and I.Q.
ReplyDeleteWho said anything about pleiotropy? You're attacking a strawman.
For the benefit of those who don't know, pleiotropy is defined as the control of more than one phenotypic characteristic by a single gene or set of genes.
Nobody is claiming that one gene or set of genes controls both skin pigmentation and IQ.
i told rushton years ago that we know enough about pigmentation to refute the connection pretty easily, but he doesn't care. so he's either stupid or ignorant. people who continue to push this after i point out the obvious logical problem are either stupid or ignorant.
ReplyDeleteThis is clearly a pretty emotional topic for Razib, he being a dark skinned guy.
if you positive that trait X is strongly correlated with pigmentation due to pleiotropy than the elucidation of the genetic architecture of the trait should b easy. if it isn't, then that implies that there isn't any real causal connection.
ReplyDeleteIf you posit that trait X is correlated with pigmentation, period, then elucidation of the genetic architecture of the trait should not be so easy.
It's very probable that skin color and IQ are not directly linked, in the sense of both sharing the same gene or set of genes.
OTOH, it is probable that skin color and IQ are linked, even if less directly than by sharing the same genes. What we find in practice is that dark-skinned people are less intelligent, on average, than are lighter-skinned people, on average. The boundary lines between the populations are blurry though, and some dark skinned people are quite intelligent while some light skinned people are quite unintelligent.
This is clearly a pretty emotional topic for Razib, he being a dark skinned guy.
ReplyDeleteWell, if it is true that there is strong pleiotropy for IQ on pigmentation (and yeah, I think Razib's analysis is basically correct, i.e. there isn't) then his F2 generation with a White chick could be either pretty awesome (all the stuff that makes Razib, brown guy awesome, and which maybe Whites don't have plus pigment boost) or totally suck (none of that makes Razib, brown guy awesome, and which maybe Whites don't have and no pigment boost).
But I can't imagine him getting too het up by that if it were the case - a chance of a very smart kid is probably worth more to him than the chance of a very dumb kid, given that most people (most of us included) probably full beneath the threshold for "retards" that he regards as a much of a muchness ("mindreading" from his blog here).
Those differences are all within population of course.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of separate populations, populations which are darker and more cryptic could moderate the non-melanin related components down, even to the point where, for example a darker population might have lower levels. E.g. darker Filipinos vs lighter Europeans or darker Indians vs lighter Europeans (I think its at least arguable that Indians are more or equally sexually abstemious and restrained than Europeans- I don't think there's much in it)*.
With a mixed population, it might be more hard to avoid.
*This has the interesting implication that F2 hybrids in between these populations would have a chance of having a more extreme profile, in both directions.
Who said anything about pleiotropy? You're attacking a strawman.
ReplyDeleteoh christ, the retard can't read. from rushton's paper: The hypothesis that skin color is a genetic orrelate of IQ was endorsed by Jensen (2006) who suggested that pleiotropy
(genes having more than one effect) may underlie the relationship.
i told rushton several times to stop bringing up the hypothesis unless he outlines why it is trivially false.
also: OTOH, it is probable that skin color and IQ are linked, even if less directly than by sharing the same genes.
what i'm trying to explain to you morons is this: there are about 6 genes which control almost pigment variation between any two pairs of populations (the 6 vary, so the total number of genes is closer to 12 in the aggregate). there are at a minimum *hundreds* of genes which control IQ variation (probably thousands of genes, though fewer QTLs). to repeat myself to you retards: by definition pigment genes can't have much effect on IQ variance, there aren't enough of them. the only other alternative is that there are large effect IQ QTLs hanging out right at those pigment genes which decades of research happens to have missed, and which we have no evidence of in the genetic architecture of IQ. i guess i could draw something in crayon for some of you, but have i made it clear to you morons? science is awesome, and we've discovered a few things in the past few years. bother to pay attention please.
(and don't repeat lewontin's fallacy as if it's going to be an awesome retort to someone who is a contributor to a blog which helped familiarize much of the HBDsphere with the concept)
Razib, will you stop that childish crap please? You are not doing your reputation any favours by behaving like a buffoon.
ReplyDeleteby definition pigment genes can't have much effect on IQ variance, there aren't enough of them. the only other alternative is that there are large effect IQ QTLs hanging out right at those pigment genes which decades of research happens to have missed, and which we have no evidence of in the genetic architecture of IQ.
So your point boils down to "it would have been found if it were so". It's hard to see why you are so sure. Quite obviously, a cluster of genes involved in pigmentation can in principle have a large effect on IQ (or anything else). If it does exist, it will manifest itself only in between-populations comparisons and will be nearly undetectable in within-population search. Please cite a GWAS that had a chance of detecting something like that with regard to IQ. I contend that it does not exist.
Razib, will you stop that childish crap please? You are not doing your reputation any favours by behaving like a buffoon.
ReplyDeleteshut the fuck up.
Quite obviously, a cluster of genes involved in pigmentation can in principle have a large effect on IQ (or anything else).
your only candidate is SLC24A5. everything else segregates in appreciable minor frequencies among europeans (e.g., the "darker" versions of HERC2-OCA2, SLC45A2 and the KITLG loci). in which case you'd predict that middle easterners, who are nearly fixed for that locus, would cluster with europeans in IQ. they don't. i know this shit, you don't. so shut up.
"appreciable minor frequencies among "
ReplyDeletenote: in many european populations the "darker" version is not really even at a "minor" frequency.
e.g.:
ReplyDeletehttp://hgdp.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/alfreqs.cgi?pos=46213776&chr=chr15&rs=rs1426654&imp=true
oh,and if SLC24A5 is responsible for between a lot of pop diff. in IQ, the uyghurs, who are a relatively recent east asian-european mix, should be geniuses. they have east asian ancestry + a lot of european SLC24A5 from their west eurasian ancestors. naturally on expects that they traditionally dominate the chinese civil service, etc. they don't. you should also have massive between sibling differences in IQ above expectation in groups where the two SLC24A5 variants are segregating at ~50 percent (e.g., south indians). now that we really know pigmentation genetics it's trivial to do thought experiments in terms of what you might predict.
ReplyDeleteHint: One has to be be a complete mindless moron to discount epistasis as completely and categorically as you do.
ReplyDeletethis is kind of an interesting issue, because i'm really into the potential of statistical epistasis at the tails of the distribution. but the reality is that you're either a moron or mendacious (in the latter case trying to impress the retards with a buzzword). people have been studying inheritance patterns of quantitative traits in populations where the putative between population loci have been segregating for decades. regular non-linearities would have been noted. retard.
"becoming tiresome"
ReplyDeletegood point though. need to go back to my blog where i have better control of the inevitable influx of the moron masses. bye-bye knuckle-draggers :0)
need to go back to my blog where i have better control of the inevitable influx of the moron masses.
ReplyDeleteTranslation: "Everybody must bow down before Mighty MEEEEEE!"
It takes a certain amount of ego to be a blogger, but you are verging on being mentally disordered.
Rushton and Templer just use the black % of a state's population for their skin color measurement. That seems pretty crude, and misses the potential differences among Amerindians, Asians, and Europeans of various ethnicities (ie, southern Italian v. scandanavian).
ReplyDeleteAs someone who is merely observing the conversation in this thread, I've been surprised by the sheer amount of hostility shown over this topic, particularly from Razib. I always knew he hated idiots, but his over-the-top attempts to tear them down seem a bit childish.
ReplyDeleteAE: Agreed.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteInteresting thread. Razib's point seems straightforward enough.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of crime, I think Rushton & Templar might find it more productive to look into the MAO-A research that the blog 'Unsilenced Science' discusses.
Temple Grandin says that white-skinned domestic animals tend to be more neurotic and troublesome.
ReplyDeleteRazib's hostility didn't seem that different from his Discover blog. It's just that he bans people earlier so there aren't extended arguments.
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth, he actually provided some scientific citations while folks here complained about his attitude. I've got as big a preference for the classic style in these discussions as anyone, but the presence of facts trumps that.
I suspect that Razib's violent hostility may have something to do with the image he sees in the mirror.
ReplyDeleteI liked his bye-bye knuckle-draggers :0) comment. I tried to drag my knuckles but am too fat.
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