My comment was just deleted from this thread at Chronicles. I was debating Mr. Fleming about Mormonism. In a nutshell, he wrote a series of posts about how dreadful that religion is, and I defended it. He seems to like writing all sorts of nasty things about people and groups, but when I responded in kind, he showed his little-girl sensitivity and deleted my last post. So, in case any of the readers of that thread wander over to this blog, here is my (paraphrased) censored post:
1. Fleming claims I am a liar: I say I'm one faith, when really I'm secretly Mormon. I told him to give me an e-mail address, and I'll have my priest vouch for me. [This outrageous offer really deserves censorship, no?] I then told him his baseless maligning of me and a perfectly respectable religion (Mormonism) reveals a shriveled soul. (Fleming is free to come here and call me anything, and it will, of course, not be deleted).
2. Fleming droned about how prohibiting Catholic and Orthodox members from associating with members of another faith is not superstitious, and proceeded to give me the endless history--what a windy prof--explaining that prohibition. I then responded that, by his way of arguing, only the policies of our faiths can be given historical explanations to show they are understandable and reasonable. Every Mormon practice, however, is wacko, sinister, or stupid.
3. Fleming admitted that he is not a good enough person to pray for people like Mormons to become Christians. I responded, exactly, the truth emerges. I told him that my wife read his comments and suggests that he go to confession.
UPDATE: It now looks like I have been banned from posting at Chronicles--I attempted unsuccesfully to post that my previous comments had been deleted, and could be found here at my blog. The enemies of the Old Right may have a point about there being fascists (and bigots) in our ranks.
My Chronicles link will remain, however, because I don't censor.
UPDATE II: I see that Fleming has also banned the Mormon commentator on this thread. So he can trash them, but then does not allow a response. He's too thick to realize that this approach just convinces Mormons that everyone is out to get them and therefore is proof of the truth of their faith.
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I couldn't follow the conversation from your description.
ReplyDelete:shrugs:
ReplyDeleteIve deleted a response from my blog once as well. Even though, it seems, I totally misinterpreted what was said.
Matters of faith or high emotion - arent always amenable to debate :)
I was never aware that conservatives were big believers in freedom of speech, to be honest; I thought it was usually subordinated to goals like order, stability, morality, and tradition. I don't think Fleming's being inconsistent.
ReplyDeleteI admire your blog, but quite frankly I was rather surprised with the quality of your response to Fleming's points. Fleming is a combative personality (unashamedly so) and relishes serious discussion. I'm sorry to say that your points really weren't worth his time.
ReplyDeleteThuvia
Fleming is clearly not thoughtful about religion. I chuckle when any religious person goes on and on about how weird another religion in. "Those Mormons wear funny clothes, he he," he says as he watches the Pope on TV.
ReplyDeleteRon,
ReplyDeleteHave you ever seen the similarities between Jesus and Horus? Take a look:
Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus:
Event Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Conception: By a virgin. There is some doubt about this matter By a virgin. 8
Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).
Mother: Meri. 9 Miriam (a.k.a. Mary).
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph). 9 Joseph.
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.
Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.
Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother. 8
Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."
Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC-21). Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.
Birth announcement: By angels. By angels. 8
Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds. 8
Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men. 8
Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual, when his eye was restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual.
Age at the ritual: 12 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.
Age at baptism: 30. 30.
Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.
Temptation: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan. Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan.
Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation. Jesus resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples. There is some doubt about this matter as well. Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.
Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father, from the grave. 10 Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.
Location where the resurrection miracle occurred: Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually. 10 Hebrews added their prefix for house ('beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany," the location mentioned in John 11.
Origin of Lazarus' name in the Gospel of John: Asar was an alternative name for Osirus, Horus' father, who Horus raised from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, this is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus." 10
Transfigured: On a mountain. On a high mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain.
Method of death By crucifixion. By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves. Two thieves.
Burial In a tomb. In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women. Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
That is all from religioustolerance's web site. There are also a bunch of pretty much the same similarities between Jesus and Mithra (1200 B.C.). Jeus and Krishna (900 B.C.) also share tons of things in common, much like Horus. There are 15 or so "crucified savior gods" in antiquity.
I hate to admit it, but religion is probably (other than real estate) the biggest scam in the history of human kind. Mormonism and espeically Islam are utterly ridiculous. Judaism is ridiculous. If there is a God out there, and he is even remotely interested in us, dont you think he is perfectly capable of literally writing script in the sky with clouds to communicate with us or something instead of ordering various tribes to kill other tribes, and take their virgins for their priests (like the Old Testament god did with the Amalekites according to the Old Testament). Religion is good at one thing: keeing people in line and supporting healthy birthrates. It all began with the concept of "hell", in which someone who didn't do what various priests told him to do, would go to suffer after his death. The problem is, that as a concept, hell is much older than Judaism or any other present day religons. Plenty of other old faiths had it (as Horus-cult had it way back in 3000 B.C. AT LEAST). There were a ton of old gods with local priesthoods that demanded tribute and wanted you to have sex with a temple prostitute back in the day (get it Ron? you really dont want to give any money to them, but since they have those pretty slave girls caught from mountain country to be sex slaves and you are supposed to "purify" yourself by screwing one, you tell the wife you need to do it or the rain god wont water your crops this year, so you have to make the journey to whatever temple to pay out x-amount of money TO GET LAID). SCAM.
I think religion is doctrinally ridiculous (resurrections, etc.) but has many positive social effects. Churches are the only positive institutions in the inner city. There have been quite a few studies showing that church attendance is good for you because of the positive social environment.
ReplyDeleteThe comparison between Jesus and Horus has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Talk about grasping pathetically at straws.
ReplyDeleteFrom Wikipedia:
"Conception
Isis had Osiris' body returned to Egypt after his death; Set had retrieved the body of Osiris and dismembered it into 14 pieces which he scattered all over Egypt. Thus Isis went out to search for each piece which she then buried. This is why there are many tombs to Osiris. The only part she did not find in her search was the genitals of Osiris which were thrown into a river by Set. She fashioned a substitute penis after seeing the condition it was in once she had found it and proceeded to have intercourse with the dead Osiris which resulted in the conception of Horus the child."
Thuvia
Nice try, but wikipedia is a joke as far as history is concerned. I think I'd trust religioustolerance.org instead of tons of pastors who log onto wikipedia to protect their bread and butter every night.
ReplyDeleteHow about Jesus and Krishna:
The Krishna and Christian Jesus Parallels
Robert Howard Kroepel
Copyright © 2001
The parallels (similarities) of the Hindu Krishna Myth to the Christian Jesus myth are strong evidence that Christianity stole/borrowed elements of the older myth.
In comparing the Krishna and Jesus myths, some of the references of the Jesus myth are stories found in the so-called Apocryphal Gospels, the early Christian writings which were not accepted for the Christian canon, which includes the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, the Acts, and other letters.
Special note will be made of the Apocryphal Gospel references.
The Apocryphal Gospel myths are included because they give additional mythological information not found in the Canonic Gospels.
Because we are interested in the total Jesus myth, this additional information is included.
Here is a chart comparing the Jesus myth to the Krishna myth.
Comparison of the Jesus and Krishna Myths The Hindu Krishna Myth The Christian Jesus Myth
Krishna is the son of the Virgin Devaki. Jesus is the son of the Virgin Mary.
Krishna's birth occurs while his foster father, Nanda, is in his native city to pay taxes to the king, King Kansa. Jesus' birth occurs while his foster father, Joseph, is in his native city to pay taxes to the Governor.
King Kansa tried to kill Krishna by ordeing the slaughter of all males born on the same day as Krishna. King Herod ordered the slaughter of all infants born on the same day as Jesus.
Source: St. Matthew, 2:16.
The Virgin Devaki is told by an angel, "In thy delivery, O favored among women, all nations shall have cause to rejoice." The Virgin Mary is told by an angel, "Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. ... Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Source: St. Luke 1:28-33.
The nativity of Krishna is heralded by a star. The nativity of Jesus is heralded by a star.
Krishna is born in a cave.
The cave story is an indication of lower-class birthplace. Jesus is born in a cave.
Source: The Apocryphal Gospel entitled Protevangelion, supposedly written by James, the brother of Jesus.
The manger story (wherein Jesus was born in a stable) is an indication of a low-class birthplace.
Krishna is visited in the cave by three wise men bearing gifts. Jesus is visited in the stable/cave by three wise men bearing gifts.
The cave was mysteriously illuminated. The cave was illuminated so brightly Joseph and Mary's midwife could not tolerate the light.
Source: The Apocryphal Gospel Protevangelion.
Nanda is warned by an angel to flee from King Kansa by crossing the Jumna River with the infant Krishna. Joseph is warned in a dream to flee from King Herod into Egypt with the infant Jesus and the Virgin Mary.
The baby Krishna began speaking to his mother shortly after birth. The baby Jesus began speaking to the Virgin Mary shortly after his birth, saying, "Mary, I am Jesus, the Son of God, that WORD which thou didst bring forth according to the declaration of the Angel Gabriel to thee, and my Father hath sent me for the salvation of the world."
Source: The Apocryphal Gospel, The First Gospel of the Infancy.
Krishna performs miracles in Mathura. Jesus performs miracles in the town of Materea in Egypt.
Krishna is the second person of the Hindu Trinity: (1) Brahma, (2) Vishnu, (3) Siva. Krishna is the incarnation of Vishnu. Jesus is the second person of the Christian Trinity: (1) God, the Father, (2) Jesus the Son, (3) the Holy Ghost.
Krishna was crucified. Jesus was crucified.
During the crucifixion, Krishna was wounded by an arrow. During the crucifixion, Jesus was wounded by a spear.
At noon on the day of Krishna's crucifixion, the sun darkened. From the sixth hour to the ninth hour on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, the sun darkened.
Krishna descended into Hell.
He raised the dead.
He brought back two boys from Hell. Jesus descended into Hell.
He raised the dead.
He brought back from Hell two boys, the sons of the high priest.
Source: The Apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus.
Nice try, but wikipedia is a joke as far as history is concerned. I think I'd trust religioustolerance.org instead of tons of pastors who log onto wikipedia to protect their bread and butter every night.
ReplyDeleteRead Plutarch you dimwit.
I make this post once in a while at web sites I regularly read.
ReplyDeleteReligiousTolerance.org is not a scholarly site. There is no institute behind it. The people involved have no formal credentials in religious studies. The main author is a retired engineer with a number of axes to grind.
I'm not saying it's terrible, or grossly inaccurate, or should never be cited - but effectively it's got the same scholarly status as any opinionated autodidactic blog.
intellectual pariah
http://truthbeknown.com/
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